Ep. 144- Business Blueprints Lessons From Leaders with Bob Healey
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Welcome to the podcast that’s designed to fuel your success in selling technology solutions. I’m your host, Josh Lupresto, SVP of Sales Engineering at Telerus, and this is Next Level BizTech.
Hey, everybody, welcome back. We are on this week, coming back to a favorite track here that’s gaining some popularity, Business Blueprints, Lessons from Leaders. On with us today, as you can see, we’ve got Mr. Bob Healey, Chief Commercial Officer from Prelude Solutions. Bob, thanks for joining, man. Thank you, Josh. It’s a pleasure.
Greatly appreciated. Thank you.
So, Bob, maybe kick us off, right, for anybody that doesn’t know you. Give us a little bit about kind of your, we’ll get to the company here, we’ll get to Prelude in a second. But just give us a little bit about your personal journey, anything unique, any weird twists, or just what’s your story kind of getting to this point?
Yep, yep. So there’s always weird twists. Right, we all have, we all have weird twists. But I’ve been in the industry for longer than I care to admit, and came out of school with a English journalism degree, right, and wanted to write for newspapers and was fortunate enough to have a byline in the Sunday Inquirer, I felt off here Sunday Inquirer, you know, many years ago. And once I had that article published, I stayed up all night, I bought like 15 copies at six in the morning. And then I quit the next day, because, you know, I was working for $5 an hour, writing articles. And, you know, that’s not what I wanted to do. And I kind of got into sales, begrudgingly, when I was working at the Inquirer, my college roommate helped me get a kind of part time job at a paging company. And they, you know, regional manager there kind of forced me in the sales against my will, because I didn’t think I’d be good at it, or I would enjoy it. And turns out, I was wrong. I think I am good at it, and I very much enjoy it. So it’s been, it’s been rewarding over, you know, that now 30 year, you know, 30 plus year run. And, you know, prelude is three years at prelude now, Kate Heemann, who’s our founder and CEO, her and I worked together and 25, six years ago, and, you know, always remained friends and got back together a few years ago.
I love it. It’s, it’s funny how I love a good winding story. I think what you find out is I’ve maybe had one person on in the 140 some episodes that we’ve done that is said, I knew right out of college, I want to do this, I say to that path, I’m still doing that. Here we are, you know, 30 years later. It’s just life, life has funny ways of working out. We discover all these things. And, you know, it’s just about kind of finding yourself what makes you happy. And I used to think that stuff was really cliche. Turns out it’s all true.
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, there was one point where I was probably 27, probably 27 years old. And, you know, my dad was a cement mace when I was growing up. So I always had that in my blood and always did that work. Um, you know, high school and college. And when I was 27, it was, I got six months if I’m not happy in this role, I’m going to join the cement mace in June. So I was, I was close to, to giving up. But, you know, things worked out and, you know, I stayed with it, you know, head down hard work and, you know, it was rewarding. Love it.
All right. So let’s, let’s get back to Prelude then. Talk us, talk us through what sets Prelude apart in the industry. Kind of how do you guys stand out and just give us a little bit about an overview of Prelude.
Yeah, sure. So one of the core premises I have is agencies, you know, technology advisors, we’re all 90% the same, right? And there’s a 10% difference. So we try and focus on what is that difference? And at the end of the day, what does that difference really mean to a potential client or to a client? So, you know, like many agencies, we have our specialty. We do specialize in 10 and expense management. But our real difference, our secret sauce, is we will do audits and optimizations of existing services and existing spend. So it really becomes a good entry point for us. There’s not always a cycle that you have to wait to come do on terms and things on those lines. And it’s helped us get into the Fortune 1000 space because the starting point is, let us optimize what you have today and optimize and reduce cost doesn’t mean switching providers. It might mean return, it might mean consolidation of contracts, consolidation of providers. So that really does become our difference. And then, you know, from a people perspective, you know, we’re, you know, 15, 16 people, but we have very good people with a lot of industry experience. So, you know, we say we know what to look for, we know how to look for it, and we know where to look for it. And that really becomes our differentiator. Awesome.
All right, let’s, this is about lessons from leaders, right? So let’s talk about, first one, I want to kick us off with some leadership philosophy questions for you. So, core principles that kind of define your leadership style and really, you know, how have they shaped the growth culture of the company?
Yeah. So when it comes to leadership, and I try not to think of myself as a leader, but more as, you know, a piece of a larger puzzle, right? And you’re kind of lead by example and lead with others together. But for me, whether it’s leadership or other aspects, it really comes down to just core basic human characteristics, right? It comes down to sincerity and being genuine. Have an understanding of the other person’s situation, you know, where EQ comes in, you know, being, just being kind, right? Being supportive, being educational, but also holding myself to account so I can then be accountable to others. And then vice versa, I want others to be accountable to themselves first, so they can then be accountable to the business. And I really stress that a lot is that accountability first to yourself, because you can’t be accountable to someone else if you’re not accountable to yourself.
Isn’t it, isn’t it funny, you know, these seemingly basic things that you talk about, you know, accountability leading by example, you know, I don’t know, I had this perception kind of growing up that everybody did these things. But you would know these things, people would treat people nice. But I mean, it’s it’s it’s crazy that those are the things that set you apart, because people just don’t do them. And they don’t, they don’t. It’s just such opportunity there, right?
There is, and I think it comes down to part of it is societal, right? We’ve become more isolationist, both as you know, you know, in some ways as a country, as individual people with COVID just exasperated so many, either exasperated or accelerated so many days. And I think that’s one of the things that I think that we need to do is to make sure that we’re not just talking about the different aspects of society. But at the end of the day, you know, when when when people look back at their life, there are going to be certain things that you remember and certain things that you wish you could have done differently.
That’s a better way to live in my mind.
I like it. Along kind of down that journey, any any great mentors or any, you know, lessons learned the hard way, anything there?
Yeah, so I think I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I’m a lead by example person. And I’ve also learned the most, I think, by the examples of others, right? I’m not a raw, raw guy. I’m not going to be the biggest cheerleader. You know, we get a big win. I’m like, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? And I know that’s not always the best way. So I have to bring myself into that celebratory mood sometimes to make sure that we do focus on and consistently remind ourselves about the wins, even if they’re little every day. So our mindset’s in a good spot.
But I’m a lead by example person. And, you know, years ago, it’s someone who, as you get older, you know, you might talk to your good friends sometimes once a year, but they’re still your good friends, right? So one of my one of my good friends, Brian Love, you know, when I was 24, maybe 23, I happened to sit next to him at the office and I just looked at him and I’m like, I’m going to do everything he does because he was the top producer. And the way he wrote in his calendar, I did the way he color coordinated things I did. And I just watched him and I’m like, that is what I want to be. And, you know, we became good friends. I helped him get a job. He helped me get a job subsequently, you know, after that first experience together. And, you know, I’ve always I’ve always hearkened back to things I learned from him. And every once in a while, I’ll send him a text to say, quote you again today, Laurie, I talked about you again today just to remind him how much I appreciate the impact you had on me when we were much younger. That’s cool. I like that.
All right. Let’s talk about hard. Let’s talk about hard challenges. Any, you know, any any major strategic challenge companies faced or innovative strategies kind of how’d you overcome it?
Yeah, sure. So one of the biggest challenges we had this year, 2024 was at the end of twenty twenty three going into the year, we decided we wanted to adopt a scaling up model for growth. Right. And the headline of scaling up, it’s similar to EOS if you’re not familiar with it, but the headline is it’s just constant prioritization of work and reprioritization of work. And everyone’s familiar with the SWOT methodology. Well, this one says throw away your weaknesses and throw away your threats and just focus on your strength and your opportunities and within their prioritize the work. And I probably 80 percent agree with that because I think you should still be aware of the threats in the market and you should still be aware of your weaknesses to try and improve. But that core mindset of focus on your strength and do more of what you do well, I do agree with.
And implementing that when you have not had a methodology before is not easy. Right. When you’re asking people to be accountable to a larger business plan that has growth tied to it, not everyone is able to do that. So as we rolled out the scaling up model and as we implemented the work and as we held ourselves accountable, not everybody at the organization was in tune with that approach. And not everyone in the organization could keep up with that pace and that methodology. So there was some changes we went through with some people who have been here for a while. And, you know, that’s not always easy, especially in a small company. But again, going back to treat people with the basic human characteristics that are good in people, treat people well, be kind to them, help elevate them, help educate them, help teach them, but also hold them accountable. And then sometimes help people move on. So that’s not always easy. That was a core challenge. But we went through it together as a group. I think it made us stronger. And in the end, everyone walks back and says that was the right thing for everybody, the right decision and the right move for everybody. And everyone’s probably in a better spot now that we went through that.
Good. I like that.
I mean, I think you’re kind of laying the foundation a little bit. You mentioned, you know, EOS and just this this fundamental new way to prioritize, reprioritize. Is there anything different that you add to to dial in this kind of culture of innovation?
Yes.
So, you know, we’re not a product. We’re an agency. Right. So there’s there’s not technical innovation that we would provide, but something that we’ve started doing this year. And I would argue that pretty good may be the most well-rounded of any agency in the total Irish universe. You know, when you when we go through our QBRs, you know, there’s a there is a chart that shows the overall universe of agencies and where their breakdown of services are sold. And you look at preludes and it almost mirrors to Laura’s as a whole. So we’re proud of that. That means we are well rounded. We’re selling services in all areas.
But what we’ve also identified is we have a specialty in 10. We have a specialty in expense management. So a lot of agencies, you know, someone else, like we have that specialty they have, especially in cybersecurity, maybe in disaster recovery. And no one really needs help with you guys or see guys or network. But if we can partner with other agencies to help elevate each of us, you know, let us bring in another partner agency when there is a core cybersecurity opportunity, because we’re OK in that discussion. But we’re not the subject matter experts. And then vice versa. Bring prelude and bring us in when you have an expense management opportunity. We can help teach your team. You know, you can teach our team cyber. We all learn together. We split the revenue and then eventually we’re each out on our own doing more. So that’s that’s an ad. I think that’s innovative. It certainly is new.
And, you know, it’s been we have a few additional not additional. We have a few partners in the agencies in the Tilaris universe that we’re starting to work with here. And it’s been well received. So we’re looking forward to doing more of that in the next couple of years, for sure.
It’s good. I like it. Yeah, there’s no shortage of there’s no shortage of customer opportunity out there. That’s for sure. There is not a tide raises all boats or whatever the phrase is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Rise and tide. Yeah. Rise and tide raises all shit. Yeah.
The other thing I think the last I don’t know, call it it’s a little bit before COVID, certainly COVID probably accelerated. But the partner community, the channel community is so much more entrenched in so many more customers than it was 10 years ago. And, you know, the old Malcolm Gladwell book of outliers. Not outliers, the one where.
We make a big change. I’ll think of it as we as we talk.
But that that’s what happened. Like there was a tipping point, the tipping point, the point, you know, where many of the providers, many of the vendors who prior were anti channel,
you know, some of them cried uncle and some of them just realized there was a better model here that we can tap into. And we can gain tremendous scale by leveraging the partner community. So I think that’s been a good, you know, a good increase in the community, the list 10, 10, 11 years. And it’s been significant. It’s been very significant.
Agree.
All right, let’s. All right. I’m a I’m a new entrepreneur. I’m just starting out any any key advice as I’m trying to build my business, you know, for the partners that are listening to this and maybe just became partners. What’s your what’s your kickoff advice there?
Yeah, I think that’s a good question. And my my headline statement there would be just trust yourself. Like if you’re taking that initiative to start an agency to go out on your own, there’s always risk involved. You know, family dynamics come into play, but just trust yourself, trust your drive and do the work, right? Put the work in, do the work and, you know, you’ll be successful. The other thing, whether you’re an entrepreneur or just I think everybody is it’s OK to fail and, you know, it’s OK to struggle, but you have to learn. Right. You have to make progress. Every every conversation has to move you forward. And sometimes even internally, when we’re reviewing.
Call with discussions with a vendor where something maybe didn’t go the way we want it. I might press a point more than is needed. And I’ll tell the team internally, this is about the next.
We’ve already lost X, but this conversation, I want to make a point about the next one and the next one. So we’re kind of in the vendor’s mindset, so to speak. So I think that’s important as well, is always be looking ahead.
And then the other this I only learned this. I only learned this a few years ago, but there’s the disc methodology. Right. And you kind of profile what type of person someone is. And a friend of a friend wrote a book called Take In Flight, and he puts the disc methodology into into birth. So it’s a little bit easier to remember. And the biggest thing was about being a chameleon and having to adapt to each personality type. But what I really took from his book, Merrick Rosenberg’s name, what I really took from his book was the golden rule is not the golden rule. Right. Don’t treat everybody the way you want to be treated. Treat people the way they want to be treated. And Josh might want to be treated different than Bob.
Josh may want you to highlight him in front of others and, you know, express how good he did. But Bob might be embarrassed by that and not want that attention. So understand in what people want. And just because you want something or think one way or like a certain style doesn’t mean others do. So just try to adapt there. So that’s a lot.
No, I like I like this. Yeah. Yeah. It’s really good. You know, one of the things, too, that last time I asked a question similar to this, that to a partner, what surprised me a little bit when I said, you know, what’s one of your kind of lessons learned or your mentor or whatever? And he said the best lesson that I learned came from a gigantic deal that I lost because I will never forget all the things that went wrong in that. And that will never happen again because it was all within my control. And we just kind of missed some things.
Yeah. And somewhat similar. But a core again, a core premise of my mindset is don’t believe you’re in B.S. Right. And especially don’t believe the B.S. Others feed you. Right. It’s, you know, undertone their wish humility. Right. But even when things are good, don’t think that you’re so good that you don’t have to do the work. You know, when opportunities are coming your way, don’t think that you’re so special that, you know, that way will continue. Like you have to do the work every day. And when people are telling you how great you are or how wonderful your business is, if you buy into that too much and believe the hype, so to speak, you could set yourself up for complacency and that set yourself up for failure. So that’s another kind of core headline is just don’t believe your own B.S.
It is true, too. I mean, you read all that stuff that talks about you become like the top five people you surround yourself with, good or bad. But I think over time in life, too, you learn who you can who you whose opinion you can really trust. And some, you know, have a Machiavellian agenda and others just are good people but have really bad advice and bad judgment. So you learn that that that circle kind of just gets a little smaller over time to go, OK, tried and true. You might not tell me what I need to know, but if I solicit it from you, I know it’s going to be gold. And so you’re right. That’s a good that’s a great reminder. Constantly check yourself, I guess.
And there’s plenty, whether it’s our CEO, Kate, you know, our CEO, Mike, or if there’s just even just friends in the industry. I I want and I wish political discussions would happen this way, but in a healthy manner, I want someone to challenge my opinion. Yeah, because I want to either validate what I’m thinking is right or thinking my strategy or approach is right. Or I want to educate myself and change my opinion. And I will, especially with Kate, I will purposely argue the other side of what she’s thinking.
Nine times out of 10, just to make sure that we’re thinking it through together the right way. And she does the same for me. So there’s a point where we know the other is arguing something I don’t necessarily believe. Yeah, if you do it in a good manner and it’s healthy, you really do help each other come to a better conclusion. And it might be changing your opinion or it might just be validating what you already thought was the case.
I it’s funny you say that. We heard this this morning, put away that I’ve maybe not ever heard it before. And I think this is what gets lost on the political side of things is that when you come at somebody, when person A comes at person B, person B thinks they’re just coming at them personally. You’re not attacking the person. You’re attacking the idea. And I think a lot of people have a hard time separating that. The defense mechanisms go up and how dare you. And this is my thing. But if we can if we can back up, separate the idea from the person, oh, my gosh, yeah, that’s a that’s a goldmine right there.
Yeah. And where did I I this was recent. I heard this and I can’t recall where it was like in the last two weeks.
And it was along this line. But the conversation was I wonder what it was. I went to an event that was focused on men’s health, suicide prevention and prostate cancer awareness. And the discussion was about mental health. And the person speaking said, you know, if somebody is suffering from, you know, you know, mental illness or mental mental challenge, you know, maybe they’re, you know, depressed, right? They have depression. Don’t say they’re depressed. Say they have depression the same way you would say so and so isn’t cancer. You don’t say so and so is cancer. You would say so and so has cancer. So if you can separate the disorder, the disease, whatever term is appropriate from the person, it does make it a healthier conversation. And I don’t know that I ever thought about it that way because I think instinctively it would flow from the tongue to say, yeah, if so and so is bipolar as opposed to so and so suffers from bipolar.
It’s a totally different. It’s a totally different.
But again, the other lesson, so to speak, is, you know, at my age, I’m still open and wanting to learn those things. And I think if we all are open and looking for areas to learn, we all will come up and understand each other better. It’s good.
All right. Let’s talk about let’s talk about decision making here. Let’s talk about just general approach to decision making, high stakes, uncertain situations. Just walk into that.
Yeah. Yep. So I think every experience we have prior helps. I don’t want to say fuel, but is the foundation for the next decision we’re going to make. And, you know, when you evaluate prior decisions made, even if it didn’t work out the way you had hoped or wanted, there are still valuable lessons or whether it was the process you went through or how you approached it. So it’s not always easy, but try and take the emotion out of the decision and just focus on the facts.
There is I saw a great or heard a great interview with the comedian Bill Moore. He was interviewing Sean Penn and they were talking about Quentin Tarantino and Bill Moore said, how can you have a conversation with that man? I never understand what he’s talking about. And Sean Pence is something very insightful. He says you got to listen to the melody, not the lyrics. I was like, oh, that’s a really insightful. So when you’re in that conversation, focus on the melody, not the lyrics, like the spirit of it. So you’re not picking words apart and things on those lines and not emotional about it. And then really just a few minutes ago, but just challenge your opinion. Don’t be afraid to have someone challenge your opinion. You should solicit that and want that because that helps you solidify what you’re thinking or maybe helps you change what your opinion is.
And the other item that I think about when we go through decisions is we want to make an evaluation. We want to be thoughtful and take our time, but not have perfectly the enemy of great and not have paralysis by analysis. So have enough information, make an educated decision and then go.
Don’t look back, don’t second guess, but go. And then if it doesn’t work out, make those one degree pivots along the way. So that’s that’s some of the approach that we take internally.
Let’s talk about personal growth. Obviously, we’ve talked a lot about surrounding ourselves with good people. Books are a key piece of that.
Anything is it books for you? Is it experiences, just resources that have just been super helpful for you and influence?
Yeah, yeah, a little bit of both, a little bit of both.
I’ve read more the last couple of years as the kids have gotten older and there’s less responsibility of care for the kids. Right. Less sports, less activities, less functions. So I certainly read more.
One of the books I read this year, which really had an impact on me, was called The Confident Mind.
Dr.
Zinser, Zinsiger, Zinser, I think is his name, sports psychologist. And prior we’ve talked about baseball. Right. So I took a mindset approach out of that that was really helpful, which was Tony Gwen back in the 80s, early 90s, maybe the best pure hitter in the history of baseball. But in the late 80s, early 90s, he was on the forefront of video and video wasn’t a thing. And today you see players with iPads on the bench. Right. But video was not used at that time. And so he was interviewed about it. And his they were asking what he does. I think all my bats and three categories, great, average and bad. And the question was, what do you do? He said, I take the bad ones. I throw them away. I never watch them again. And I take the ones that were OK and I put them aside and I watch my good at bats and I watched them over and over and over again. And then the question was, well, why wouldn’t you watch where you maybe swung a mist to improve? He said, I want to focus on what I did well and only focus on that and just constantly hardwire that into my brain so it becomes second nature. So that was something I never thought about before, because I would have always considered myself a relentless improver and focus on what didn’t go well so we could be better and not acknowledging what we did well. And that that that’s personal growth for me because I was not good at that for many, many years. And now I really do try and focus on that mindset of this is what we did well today. This is what we did well today and keep doing more of it and just make that the focus and completely get away from the things that didn’t go well.
I’ve never I like that perspective. I’ve never heard it because human nature is so what there’s got to be a negative here. What’s the negative? Let me go fix that negative. But and, you know, we were talking about this a little bit before the call. There are certain things that once the human brain hears them so many times or after so many seconds, you can kind of convince your brain one way or another that like, oh, man, I do suck or no, I am pretty good. And that changes things for you.
Yeah. Old school Tony Robbins that I bought in. Tony Robbins has probably been going back to influences. He’s probably been the core influence on my behavior the last twenty five years.
So one of his core teachings is your brain will answer any question you ask it. The key is to ask it the right questions. Right. So if you ask yourself, why am I so fat? Your brain will answer that question. And it’ll tell you every reason that’s negative. If you ask the question of what can I do today right now to improve my weight and have fun doing it and focus on that, your brain will answer that question. So that becomes a key is you you influence your mindset by the questions you ask yourself. And at the end of the day, the only thing in life that we control is what we think about. Everything else there’s a there’s a counter influence on the only thing that there is no counter influence on other than, you know, narcotics or chemicals or, you know, a health disorder is what we think.
I love it. We’re getting deep. This is good. All right. I got a couple more for you here. Maybe one or two more success, personal success failures. Any any instance maybe where one of these personal failures are just turned into a really great lesson or stepping stone to something better?
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So one of our largest clients, fortune 1000, a name most people would recognize.
We had a major struggle with call it end of twenty three going into twenty four, probably summer twenty three going into the end of the year last year.
Where just the way our audit work works, the cost to us, the investment of time is high up front.
And then you start generating revenue six months later and our costs are much lower at that point because then it’s just processing orders, not the heavy inventory build and research.
And we were at that point where we were about to start being able to generate revenue and we were this close to being like out and done. And it was really all internal at the client and nothing we did wrong. And there was a little nuance, a little thing that happened that I just jumped all over and I made a bigger deal of it than needed to be made. But I used it from the perspective of never be afraid to have a difficult conversation.
And that’s another core thing we teach internally is we change the phrase difficult to be important. Right. So it’s not always like a negative like difficult. It’s just an important conversation. And I learned that years ago that no difficult discussion ever becomes easier with the passage of time. Right. Like if you got to tell if you got to tell Adam something right. And it’s not good. It’s not going to be easier tomorrow. Nope.
Nope. It doesn’t get better.
But that’s a core human trait is push it off, push it off, push it off. So don’t push it off. Address it. We did that. It was a bit of a heart to heart. It was a bit of a little bit of this that respectfully I’m not afraid of because if you handle it professionally and appropriately, you get past it. And like many fights you might have with a friend, you’re that much closer afterwards. You laugh about it and that’s what happened. So again, I think the lesson, the personal success, the failure there was what we did didn’t work.
The success was addressing it and moving forward in a better spot and coming out the other side with a better relationship with the client.
It’s good.
Which today a year later is our largest client and some of the best work that we’ve done.
I love it. In the moment, it gets so wild in those moments, but in hindsight, it just makes so much sense of, yeah, we did the right thing and look how it benefits us now. All right. Final thoughts here. So we’re thinking legacy and impact. So if you look ahead, let’s just call it look ahead 10 years and you kind of then you’re looking back. What’s the impact that you want to feel like I made this impact either in this industry or as a leader of Prelude? You know what? Final thoughts there.
Yeah. So prior to Prelude, my entire career was spent at providers. Right. So that’s part of what makes Prelude so good is a lot of us have that provider experience and that perspective we bring to the excuse me, to the client side of the table.
One thing that not even five, 10 years from now, but today makes me happy, makes me feel good about the work I’ve done is at the summit at Channel Partners at whatever event you go to where the providers are there. Obviously with the years under my belt, there’s a long line of people I’ve worked with, right? Many of which I’ve hired, some of which I had to let go. But it makes me feel good when people thank me for work that we did years ago or where I help them either get a job or help them improve their job or when they tell me things I said, like when I mentioned about Brian Love, my buddy, they tell me things that they do today that I taught them 10, 12, 15 years ago. So, you know, you know, I don’t think about legacy, so to speak. That’s an area that makes me feel good. And I hope there’s more that, you know, as time goes on. And, you know, I say this very humbly, but I want people to look at me and say, that’s a good dude. That’s that’s that’s a solid dude right there. And if people say that, I’m happy.
I think that’s where we wrap it, man. That’s a good that’s a good note.
It’s solid, dude. There’s your headline.
Hey, be be a solid dude. Make good decisions. Have hard have have important ones. I learned that one today.
That’s a good headline world. Be a solid dude. That’s it.
I like it. That’s it. It’s good stuff. Bob, thanks so much for coming on.
Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. This was fun.
All right, everybody, that wraps us up for today. As always, remember, these things drop every Wednesday. You can hear all these great nuggets from Bob here before anybody else does. I’m your host for today, Josh Lupresto, SVP of Sales Engineering at Telarus. Bob Healey, chief commercial officer from Prelude. Business Blueprints, Lessons from Leaders. Until next time. Thank you.